Xile He 0:26

Thanks for having me.

Xile He 0:55

Yeah. So I am a serial entrepreneur. I work on different startups. Originally I was a media startup founder. I founded Morning Wrap which is the first newsletter startup in Southeast Asia and we grew it to the largest one in the region before selling to Finimize which is also an industry leader in the space. And then after that I joined Mocha as the founding head of growth and when I joined there was no traction, no growth rate at all and you know other competitors like Lovable, Bolt, Replit they are actually taking off last year so I joined Mocha to build the entire growth engine from zero and then grew it to more than 300,000 users with like a multi-figure ARR before it was acquired.

Yeah. So it's a wild journey and right now I am also starting my new business my third company to build something for the real economy. Yeah.

Xile He 2:09

Yeah. So at Morning Wrap it was you know it's a media startup. So literally what I was doing is to getting users getting traction and that's the same thing that we need to do at Mocha. So you know we are literally acquiring nontechnical people who want to build a website and also apps softwares those business owners and then all the skill set and also my experience were pretty much transferable. It's the same thing like a getting users getting revenue, getting traction, how we can use the right messaging to touch the user base and how we can get their attention and of course like you have to turn that attention into revenue because you have to make sure that they actually love the product and then they have great experience. And then yeah so I would say that it's pretty much similar getting traction users. Yeah.

Xile He 3:21

Yeah. So when we actually launched the Mocha 1.0 you know Lovable is already much over 50 million ARR and that means we are literally competing with those incumbents and instead of say outspending them to get the customers which we cannot because we are a startup while they have already raised hundreds of millions of dollars we cannot do the strategy of outspending them but to outsmart them. So the wedge that we find is that a lot of the users of Lovable, Replit at the time of when they have to build a fully functional app they still have to connect to you know Supabase, Firebase you know connect API keys so that they can have a fully functional app but you know for a lot of business owners who are extremely nontechnical they have no idea what is Supabase, Firebase they don't even know what's the concept of a database Not to mention that oh hey you have to do extra steps to set up this and that so that you can have a really like a real working software then it's really difficult for them to set up.

So that's the wedge that we identify. We want to target those extremely nontechnical people and if they are struggling with the database authentication then Mocha is something for them because we built the back end within the product so it's very intuitive for the [user] to set up everything they don't need to do everything like a things extra to set up the back end so that's the wedge that we use and we use this messaging positioning across all the campaigns through the launch the creators campaign and also all the like through website creators campaign UGC and our X launch video, Product Hunt all the launches we use the same messaging and that wedge actually allow us to grow very rapidly in the early stage before other competitors also kind of follow the same messaging. Yeah. So that's kind of a wedge that we adopted in the early phase.

Xile He 5:58

Yeah. So Mocha is a YC company and I think within the YC ecosystem is definitely very exciting and very energetic. I think the core difference is that everyone is building something new and something cool and they want to solve the problems for the society. So I think it's like when you alone because previously I also build business in you know Hong Kong, Singapore, Toronto, New York and in those different cities the ecosystem is totally different in a Silicon Valley and also like YC a lot of people they are trying to do something crazy they're trying to build something very creative that people when people see they will say, "Oh, are you out of your mind?" Something like this.

And when you're not alone, like you see a lot of people there doing the same thing, then it's also encouraging you to do something similar and even a wilder to build something to that can actually impact the world in a very good way. So that's the difference in terms of the ecosystem and I definitely see like in the app builder space one core difference is that we are probably in one of the most competitive space. So literally we were facing the pressure from our competitors as well. But that pressure is also working in a good way that it helps you to train your muscle.

You are always thinking about how I can stand out in a very crowded space, how I can be more creative, how I can be like thinking about something very creative and smart so that we can stand out from the competition. So it's very good in a sense that your mind your muscle is literally trained in a very competitive space. But of course like in Silicon Valley I do see a lot of people they are building something new and it's really great to build along with them. Yeah.

Xile He 8:26

Yeah the second exit that I have experienced one is my own startup and another one is this one. Yeah so for Mocha, Anything is taking majority of our users and our users are migrating to their platform. Yeah. So that's the second exit that I have experienced in my career.

Xile He 9:21

I think AI is fundamentally transforming the media space because when I started Morning Wrap it's like a six years ago there's no GPT. Of course that's the, you know, the most obvious difference and we have to do all the say video collaboration, UGC, content writing ourselves like manually and we literally have to hire a big team to do that. We have to hire editors, we have to hire illustrators, we have to hire like a writers, you know, actually do a lot of stuff manually. But right now you can imagine that even one person can start a very big media empire literally because with content writing you have LLM to help you.

If you want to do video then you also have the video model to help you. And then if you want to say like build a UGC engine then there is also tools for UGC videos and I definitely see that it is completely transformed by AI and right now literally anyone can start a media business if they want to. And one thing that really caught my attention is that recently I was really amazed by the development of video side the video model because like even last year when we were trying to find some AI tools for UGC creators it's still a little bit difficult to find a very great tool or the model is still not there yet to generate very smooth UGC content but right now I am seeing that even some drama you know some short drama in other countries they are literally using AI to film everything and it's also taking the jobs of real actors and actress that's kind of scary but for anyone who want to build a business in media and also you know do marketing that's actually great news because you don't have to hire or pay creators to do you know pay them a lot to shoot videos for you but rather you can just use AI to film it and also it can actually convert because it's getting very real I'll say compared to maybe last year. Yeah. So that's a really surprising thing for me on the video side.

Xile He 12:22

I think currently it's still heavily concentrated in the consumer industry because usually when we're talking about the UGC creators, it's usually very effective for consumers, e-commerce, DTC and also say right now the SaaS industry who are product-led for example like Mocha, Lovable those product that is in the B2C area and of course there is B2B element but mostly B2C and for the B2B side, I still feel like you know human is still the most important thing because you literally have to trust that you know the team and also the company to build something reliable and so far I don't see the AI UGC creators will have this power to build the trust immediately within 30 seconds. That's still very challenging for B2B industry.

Xile He 14:22

Yeah. So that's a really challenging question because you know for a lot of AI-generated content monetization is definitely a big challenge for them and last year we actually work with some AI kind of AI creators for the app builder space previously but we also noticed that their video rarely converts to revenue. So that means you know even though they're having really great impression on paper like on the YouTube that views number the audience doesn't it's not really engaging with the content and you see that there's not enough signups and also conversion to revenue from those creators.

So I think it's definitely a big challenge for those AI creators but in the rest of the world I already started to see that for example in mainland China I know that a lot of the kind of short drama producers they are using AI to make content and it's generating pretty good revenue because people are still enjoying watching the kind of short drama on streaming platforms And you know for those kind of content it's mainly depend on the story script and it's not on the kind of a human element. People are just watching those content for fun and also you know enjoying the story itself.

So it doesn't really matter for them whether it's a AI avatar or it's a real human being. Yeah. So I know that they're kind of on a good track of great monetization using this method. So I do see that maybe in the US we will also see similar trends down the line. The creators will also make some money great money from the AI-generated content. I think it's totally possible.

Xile He 17:49

I think for B2B marketers, if we're talking about GTM, then you know there are a lot of GTM outreach tools recently, it's done by AI and usually for traditional B2B sales, you have to do like cold calls and also cold emailing. But right now you have a lot of tools to automate that part. I think that's a very like a good news for B2B marketers. But right now the challenge is like rather than you know everyone can use those tools. You can write cold emails to a lot of the say your customers in your industry but those emails really look like AI slop.

And you know, when I was working at Mocha, I receive tons of emails like this and they're pitching me like, "Oh, here's a AI automation tool. Here's something that you have to check out." Those emails look pretty much similar and you can tell immediately that it's AI-generated. So for the B2B marketers, I think right now the challenge is that avoid AI slop. That's the challenge. For a lot of marketers and also founders because human touch is something rare right now in this generation in this era when AI content and AI-generated emails videos become massive and it's overwhelming then something that you wrote yourself and then you can duplicate trying to use AI to automate that like your own voice is something that I think founders and also B2B marketers can experiment because from my perspective I also saw that at Mocha you know human touch is irreplaceable.

Even though we work with some AI-generated like a creators we still find that the human creators with great content and their audience is very engaging then it's literally outperforming all the AI-generated content. Yeah, usually that's the case.

Xile He 20:48

Yeah, exactly. So like again when I was doing growth a lot of people there say oh I really want to optimize for the total views the total impressions of a post a video and maybe content in general but what I prioritize is the conversion because ultimately we want to grow the revenue we want to grow the business we are not growing the impressions itself and then literally You have to take care of you have to think about what kind of content can bring in conversion. What kind of creators that you work with can bring in conversion rather than just say 1 million impression in a video but no conversion at all. No sign up, no leads, no qualified customers at all.

Xile He 22:18

Yeah, I think you caught something really interesting because across channels we've also experienced different types of content and based on the result I can tell you that educational content wins because for Mocha or app builders itself we are literally showing people that oh hey you can build the apps and software you know within minutes This the goal itself is already very tempting or attractive for people but we literally have to let people know how they can do it so that it also proves that this is something real rather than just an empty claim.

So we experimented different types of videos, content like articles and also posts as well and we found that the educational content really converts well to revenue not just the signups because some flashy videos can bring in a lot of signups but they don't know how to build it. That's the problem. So if we want to want them to kind of pay to you know spend time to build on the platform then that means we have to teach them how to actually start building and what's the best way to start build a website and also apps or maybe like internal software like a CRM and most of the time they have no idea what they can build for example they usually wonder oh so with this tool what kind of a use cases can I build and we will tell them for example if you are a business owner you can build a CRM for your own business you can build internal job management tools for your like a renovation company your HVAC business hair salon you know those kind of a very specific use cases and it will become a inspiration for them so that they know oh I can actually build something like this and it's really amazing and we found that the conversion of educational type content is the best across all type of content.

Xile He 24:54

Well, the purpose of those platform including like a Mocha, Lovable, Anything like the app build users in general is that we host the website and also the internal web app on the platform. So they don't have to think about oh I should host it here or there and set up this but rather they can just hit publish and then it's deployed. Yeah. So, that's why it's built for the nontechnical builder because we want to make the experience as smooth as possible.

Xile He 25:46

Yeah, exactly. That's something that we saw across a lot of SMB owners. So they are literally building CRM, internal job management tools and of course like websites, e-commerce, those sites. But the internal software is something pretty new and also very interesting trend that I see because we are literally talking about say renovation company owners, restaurant owners and someone who are running say HVAC roofing and what else? Yeah those real economy the business world and they come to Mocha to build something for their own business because they felt like the existing SaaS solutions cannot fit what they need and say so they just decided oh I can just build something myself.

So this is a really interesting trend and we also start to target those SMB owners earlier this year and it turned out to be very successful because we noticed that the business owners they are not just using app builders here and there trying 10 different app builders just to for just for comparison or build a SaaS tool and try to sell to someone but rather they are already running a business and they felt like I want to automate my existing workflow. So that's why they come to the platform and they build a business operation on those platform and that means you know the churn rate is also improving they are more sticky than other cohorts because it's a real business and they want to build the operation business operation on the platform. Yeah.

Xile He 28:10

Yeah. So currently we are building something for the real world economy a real world business because at Mocha I've seen you know as I mentioned the HVAC owners the renovation companies owners they are literally coming to the platform to build something themselves and the gap that I see is that they are still struggling to build those tools because even though Mocha is already designed for the extremely nontechnical builders, it's still very challenging for them to configure everything and also maintain that software on the platform. So what they want is something like the work to be delivered, automate their workflow rather than say oh I give you a shovel and you can build yourself.

It's still too challenging for them. So right now this is the direction I am working on. I really want to build for those real world business that is you know out of Silicon Valley they are trying to automate their own business workflow and that's something I am working on right now.

Xile He 29:24

Yeah, so that's are those are kind of my current focus and I will reveal more as I continue to build. Yeah.

Xile He 29:41

Like timing?

Xile He 29:45

Yeah. I think I will be able to share more down the line. Maybe in the next few months, I think.

Xile He 30:03

On media and marketing, actually as I mentioned earlier, I do see that AI is already fundamentally changing the media space and also marketing space. And I think in 2027 we will see more head of growth and also maybe CMO on autopilot. We already see some products who are building in this space and for people working in this space both in media and also marketing then they literally have to pay special attention to those platforms and be more creative than the compared to those AI-generated content or whatever. But as I mentioned I think video is something that is catching my attention so far because I think last year video generation is still, I'll say, at a bottleneck when we work with the AI creators using video model to generate videos, it's still a little bit sloppy but gradually this year you're seeing a video being fundamentally transformed and video is a core part of marketing and also media as we all know.

If we want to run a marketing for B2C companies then this is something that we cannot ignore. You will work with the UGC creators, you will generate videos for your own launch video or you know marketing video anything and if you're running a media business then you might also consider using an AI avatar to kind of replace you or sometimes you know I saw some creators they are using AI avatar to mimic what they like their image and also create a kind of a duplicate of themselves. So I do see that this will be the next wave for media and also marketing and that also means for smaller business they will get a bigger opportunity because it's more affordable.

You don't have to hire really like a big bunch of UGC creators army to film the video for you but rather you can start something with a very small budget and you can have say 100 AI creators working for you. So creativity will be the only limit as long as you can imagine or vision something really great either a story line either the hook the UGC video format then you can be the creators that or you can be that growth engine that produce massive amount of great video content and it will be a fuel for both B2C companies and also So say in tech and also retail industries in general so far what we see that e-commerce DTC retail and also PLG companies like Lovable you know app builders our industries in general I think those industries will benefit the first from the video technology improvement. Yeah.

Xile He 34:14

My LinkedIn. Yeah, I'm very active on LinkedIn.

Xile He 34:23

Yeah, I'm very excited to join the podcast and talk to you Jordan today. Yeah so if anyone who's working in say real world business running traditional business then I'm happy to talk to them. Yeah just reach out to me on LinkedIn. I would be very interested in a talk. Yeah.